Chalkhills Digest Volume 6, Issue 221
Date: Thursday, 3 August 2000
Chalkhills Digest, Volume 6, Number 221
Thursday, 3 August 2000
Topics:
RE: Light my radial tire
Sua Culpa
Re: sounds different
jim, leth, poetry and stuff
insert witty subject line here
I'm so deaf
I can't believe I'm STILL talking about Paper Lace
Neil Young
A great deal
<OT>Swans
Do breasts dream of electric sleep?
miscellaneous ramblings
KILL NAPSTER!
Massive Attack
wasp star/rats paws
Neil Young et al.
Some art & music you may wish to ignore (No XTC content)
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---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 2 Aug 2000 16:09:31 +0100 From: "Smith, David" <David.Smith@tfeurope.com> Subject: RE: Light my radial tire Message-ID: <4BBE67B71C1DD411A23600508B65F71E6860CB@tfsecmsg04.tfseur.co.uk> Hi all - no responses to the rap/sampling debate from me - it's grown almost as tedious as bad sampling . . errrr, sorry. Dunks said (back on the Doors theme) "And what the hell else are you going to rhyme "Fire" with anyway, smartypants?" Well there's: ". . . you know this song raises my ire" ". . . and this song is sounding pretty dire" " . . . if this goes on much longer I will tire" ". . . you know I've got a voice for hire" " . . . and I wish that I could play the Lyre" " . . . and we'll end up sounding like a choir" ". . . and I'll hang myself with chicken wire" " . . . rand our rove recome a runeral rire" (Scooby Doo mix) And if you want to get more challengng, I suggest using: Perspire Expire Town crier Hair dryer Home buyer Radial tyre (tire) Sexual desire Ecclesiastical attire Austin Friar Mark McGwire Richard Pryor I guess we should leave the last word on rhyming fire with the bard - here's how old Bill Shakespeare did it: "With spritely FIRE and motion; whose simple touch Is powerful to araise King Pepin, nay, To give great Charlemain a pen in's hand And write to her a love-line." (All's Well That Ends Well, Act 2, Scene 1) No, I can't see the rhyme either - crap, innit? Smudge "no, I can't see the rhyme either" boy E-Mail: david.smith@tfeurope.com
------------------------------ Date: Wed, 2 Aug 2000 11:37:48 EDT From: Hbsherwood@aol.com Subject: Sua Culpa Message-ID: <22.9546bfa.26b99a4c@aol.com> >From: Jim Allen <karnevil9@loop.com> >Subject: Mea culpa >The credits say this: "Orchestral arrangements for 'Greenman' and 'I Can't >Own Her', Mike Batt. All arrangements played by London Session Orchestra >under their leader Gavin Wright" So, no mention of 'River of >Orchids'. Not to labor a point, but I'm having a little trouble figuring out how you arrive at the conclusion that the category "All arrangements" does not include "River of Orchids." Would you like to elaborate? Take a look, if you like, at Peter Fitzpatrick's post about visiting Andy and Colin in Abbey Road Studios while they were working with the orchestra recording Apple Venus: http://chalkhills.org/digests/show.cgi?digest=Digest.4-70.gz, post entitled "I Saw The News Today....oh boy." >I'm not in to XTC enough to read every scrap of info on them and >buy albums of demos, so how was I was supposed to glean from the credits >how Andy arrived at the sounds or where they were recorded? How about turning that proposition around: If you *haven't* gleaned from the credits (or otherwise) how Andy arrived at the sounds or where they were recorded, how about pledging to contribute to the general fund of XTC knowledge we are busy building here, by going out and bloody well finding out, instead of speculating? That would work for me. >How silly of me for not recognizing the acoustic of >Abbey Road, the particular sound of a session orchestra and the wholly >distinctive conducting style of Gavin Wright and/or Mike Batt. This is glib and self-serving. You know damned well that I didn't take you to task for not knowing these things _a priori_. I twitted you for assuming River of Orchids was played by a virtual orchestra, while you simultaneously made the claim that musical influence is morally equivalent to outright appropriation through sampling. I'm still trying to decide whether I was offended more as a musician or as an XTC fan by this. >Oh that's >right, I'm not one Harrison Sherwood with his superior ears and >intellect. Poor me. I'd have been far more inclined to be polite if you'd managed not to fling little balls of verbal poop at my friends while regaling us with examples of the breathtaking catholicity of your musical tastes. Now you appear to be backpedaling from your earlier insulting tone, which is good. Now if you can refrain from being *quite* so condescending to people whose musical knowledge you believe to be less stunning than your own, we'll all get along just fine. I notice you chose not to respond to my point about influence versus appropriation. Pity: I think it would have been an entertaining discussion -- certainly more so than Alien Abduction Album Collections, at any rate. -------- Speaking of people who Walk the Walk: Folks: Have you caught Dunks Kimball's stemwinding "Stand and Deliver!: An Open Letter to Phillip Kennicott" posted at Chalkhills (http://chalkhills.org/misc/Dunks000731.html)? Kennicott's article appeared in the Friday, July 27, Washington Post (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A58940-2000Jul27.html). It's a woeful collection of seat-of-the-pants sociology, sloppy history, and tendentious redefining of terms, in defense of the proposition that Napster was on the brink of creating a new kind of "folk" culture. By Kennicott's implication, We the People are once again being screwed by The Man as the big mean frowny Fascist record companies litigate The People's Music out of existence: oNo pasaran! Dunks has a few things to say about that. Read it, folks. Corking good stuff... Harrison "And Napster is Theft and Wapster is Weft and Lapster is Left and Dapster is Deft and Hapster is Heft..." Sherwood
------------------------------ Date: Wed, 02 Aug 2000 10:50:20 -0500 From: Olof Hellman <hellman@ksan.ms.nwu.edu> Subject: Re: sounds different Message-ID: <B5ADAD6B.C23%hellman@ksan.ms.nwu.edu> Or, as the Windows/language fascists would try to get me to say, "sounds differently" .... >What pop/rock artist, that you like (almost?) as much as XTC, sounds the >most different from XTC? It's a tossup between 1) Brave Combo 2) Akiko Yano - Olof
------------------------------ Date: Wed, 02 Aug 2000 09:30:25 -0700 From: alec <errora@earthlink.com> Subject: jim, leth, poetry and stuff Message-ID: <39884C8C.11598D27@earthlink.com> > i just thought i'd post a little particulate in response to the "give the > singer some!" post defending the doors' morrison: jim morrison's voice and lyrics are usually entertaining to me, to be honest. as to the humor found or not found in his lyrics, frankly, his sexy leather hippy guy HAD to be a put on, so he must have had some sense of black humor that goes with the leth. also, sting was mentioned along with morrison and this seems pretty apt. i think sting must have had a jim morrison complex with all the bedroom eye'd sincerity he projected (like david lee roth, come to think of it!). here's how i see sting: sting was a jazz fusion guy who used bob marley's voice and jim morrison's intensity to try to save the world. personally, i prefer love to the doors. love is to the doors what the pretty things were to the rolling stones. it's interesting to note that arthur lee was pretty much responsible for getting the doors signed in the first place. also, the act of declaring yourself a poet in the '60s being a really radical thing and shouldn't be made an easy shot out of, it doesn't seem to be entirely out of bounds for people who weren't in the military or on sports teams to have some affectations towards penning poems. maybe there were militarily-equipped sports playing poets running around the u.s. in the sixties. jim morrison's fellow '60s people like syd barrett, john lennon, skip spence, brian wilson and his various lyricists like van dyke parks, arthur lee and sometimes bob dylan are just as worthwhile reading as literature as james joyce, lewis carrol or robert burns, let alone morrison. i don't know enough about morrison to feel like he gave me the the poetry those people did. i like lee hazlewood pretty much, though, and want to keep buying all his CD and vinyl re-issues and his lyric writing is kind of morrison in its goth cowboy-ness. -alec
------------------------------ Date: Wed, 2 Aug 2000 09:13:32 -0700 (PDT) From: Tyler Hewitt <tahewitt@yahoo.com> Subject: insert witty subject line here Message-ID: <20000802161332.9670.qmail@web2105.mail.yahoo.com> > I'll start the bidding with Graham Parker. Never heard of him. What's the one-line oversimplifying summary? The evil love child of Elvis Costello and Bruce Springsteen takes a stab at being a soul singer. Actually, he's better than that, even though I've found his work to be extremely uneven in terms of quality. Don't really listen to him at all, actually. any of his work I had was sold off when I moved last time.
------------------------------ Date: Wed, 2 Aug 2000 18:19:19 +0200 From: jeffrey.thomas.jt@bayer-ag.de Subject: I'm so deaf Message-ID: <0006800028565374000002L042*@MHS> Hi "Kreideberger", Re. misheard lyrics, if I don't concentrate, I still hear the line in YD as "for I'd fool you, layin' round everywhere". But my favorite misheard lyric (of my own) is: You'd say what do you want with this mojo, it's doing me harm You know I can't sleep, I cancelled the plane You know it's three weeks, I'm going insane Yeah, that John Lennon, he really was quite the lyricist, huh? - Jeff
------------------------------ Date: Wed, 2 Aug 2000 17:50:33 +0100 From: "Smith, David" <David.Smith@tfeurope.com> Subject: I can't believe I'm STILL talking about Paper Lace Message-ID: <4BBE67B71C1DD411A23600508B65F71E6860CD@tfsecmsg04.tfseur.co.uk> Roger kindly informed me: Hitchin a Ride was by Vanity Fare & dont knock it. Its one of my all time favorites. Deb and I have conversed off-list regarding the aforesaid tune and I have been reliably informed that Vanity Fair did the original. Paper Lace did, however, have a UK hit, in 1974, with a cover version, called (surprisingly) "Hitchin a Ride '74". So neeerrrrrrrr! Still think the song sucks though! ************ Oh, and many of you fell for my dastardly plan to suck people into a Dire Straits debate - and I stand duly corrected in that "Makin Movies" was indeed album #3, after the eponymous debut and "Communique". Sorry about that. Dire Straits, for my money, are the band who prove the theory put forward by National Lampoon and attributed elsewhere here to Dylan - you only have so many good ideas in you. They usually ran out of them at the end of side one. IMHO (yes, I do hate acronyms) Dire Straits released about two albums worth of really great stuff and the rest is just pants. ************* Jason Wilson Brown (cool name) opined: But Paul Simon is fucking asshole! Hey he slapped Princess Leia around! Grrrr! Yeah, but she did try and shoot Jake and Elwood, grrrrrrr! ************** In the Britney debate, me old mucker Rory asked about other artists releasing the same song twice. For the classic example, look no further that the group who openly admitted the practice. I refer you, of course, to The Four Tops, who followed up their smash "I Can't Help Myself (Sugar Pie Honey Bunch)" with the aptly titled "The Same Old Song" - which basically re-cycled the bass line and reversed the hook tune. Didn't stop them both being classics of their genre. *************** Hey Dunks. the Napster thing. Alright. Enough. Already. :-) I liked the line "If Napster was run by a worldwide cooperative of musicians, Kennicott *might* have the shadow of an argument." It conjured up the image of a million musicians worldwide simultaneously slapping their foreheads and exclaiming "D'Oh!". Smudge "Ferret Ears" Boy E-Mail: david.smith@tfeurope.com
------------------------------ Date: Wed, 02 Aug 2000 11:48:12 PDT From: "K N" <kn73@hotmail.com> Subject: Neil Young Message-ID: <20000802184812.46773.qmail@hotmail.com> I've been lurking because I have no XTC content to contribute, but as that doesn't seem to stop anyone else... I just want to speak up for the unrepresented section of Neil Young fans... the female ones. The man just, plain rocks and puts more energy into his music than artists half his age. I'd also venture to say that I like Neil more than my husband does. So put that in your statistical pipe and smoke it. -Kali Nichta - "And I like rap, too." http://www.sfgoth.com/~kali
------------------------------ Date: Wed, 02 Aug 2000 13:47:24 -0400 From: "Todd Bernhardt" <todd.bernhardt@enterworks.com> Subject: A great deal Message-ID: <39885EAC.C9CAF980@enterworks.com> Organization: Enterworks, Inc. Hi: Just to clue everyone in on a great deal, HMV.com is offering free shipping and handling to anyone within North America in honor of their 1st birthday from July 29 to Aug. 14. They already offer a good deal in that they usually give you free S&H if you order four or more things from them, but this offer doesn't have that restriction. There are flaws w/the site, their selection isn't completely comprehensive, and if you live in the U.S. you sometimes have to wait longer than you'd like for your purchase to arrive, but overall I'm a satisfied customer (standard disclaimer -- I'm not involved in any way w/the company, etc. -- applies). FWIW, I just ordered Fossil Fuel for less than US$14.50. Schweet. -Todd
------------------------------ Date: Wed, 2 Aug 2000 17:57:36 +0000 (MET) From: rappard@dds.nl Subject: <OT>Swans Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.90.1000802174316.27525D-100000@fatima.dds.nl> Second post in one day! What's wrong with me? Anyway, "Chris" <bonyking@sniffout.com> asked about the Swans, listing his tape copy of "Love Of Life" as his favourite album. Any Swans fan would probably say that this is one of their weaker efforts, but most fans prefer the eighties stuff anyway. The live album "Public Castration Is A Good Idea" is definitely one of the most brutal and haunting albums ever - not to be listened at dusk and beyond, unless you'd like to try Prozac afterwards. A general recommendation would be to try the rest of the albums on the Young God label - if you like those, slowly work your way back chronologically into the catalogue. "Cop", "Greed" and "Children Of God" would probably come out on top in a Swans fans poll (but these are all earlier albums) - from the nineties, the aforementioned live album and "White Light From The Mouth Of Infinity" will likely be favourites. And thanks to whoever posted the Profanisaurus link - people at the internet cafe where I write this are probably wondering why I'm grinning so idiotically. Hey, what's new? Marty "I think I'll take my medication now, doctor" van Rappard http://members.xoom.com/rappard
------------------------------ Date: Wed, 2 Aug 2000 11:30:45 -0700 (PDT) From: brown <mb2@deltanet.com> Subject: Do breasts dream of electric sleep? Message-ID: <200008021830.LAA18464@mail2.deltanet.com> Greetings from the Faraday cage! Someone mentioned John Lydon on television- A while back, flipping through the channels I came upon a strange, strange sight.. There was Mr. Lydon on Judge 'freakin' Judy, being sued by some drummer with a bone to pick (didn't catch the details). Utterly surreal. ----- On Hitchin' A Ride- The Vanity Fare version of HAR came out in '69 or '70, didn't it? (I have the 45 packed away in the garage). Smudgeboy tells me that Paper Lace did have a U.K. hit with their version, (Hitchin' A Ride '74). Lightning CAN strike twice! I can still smell the cooked ozone... ----- At the mis-heard lyrics pavilion: >From Senses Working O.T., I heard- "and birds might fall from Basque eyes.." Basque eyes.. They sound lovely, don't they? In digest #216, the lovely squirrel girl mentioned these mis-heard BATJ lyrics- < .. I sang "B-B-B-Benny has a chest" ..> I was equally fixated on that part of the female anatomy as well.. In another part of Benny and The Jets, I heard (and I suspect I wasn't the only one): ..."she's got electric boobs, a mohair suit.." ..electric boobs... now there's something to think about... "Hot damn! How do I turn these babies on?".. "will I get zapped if I touch 'em while they're wet?"... "we have got to get you a battery pack, dear.. I'm tired of getting tangled up in the cord!" I'll make my apologies now- Debora 'solar-powered' Brown *my musical trinity for Aug. 2- Soul Coughing (Ruby Vroom), XTC (Nonsuch), Stan Getz (Opus De Bop)- amen.
------------------------------ Date: Wed, 2 Aug 2000 13:25:15 -0400 From: "Michael D. Myers" <mmyers@telcordia.com> Subject: miscellaneous ramblings Message-ID: <8525692F.005FB35C.00@notes949.cc.telcordia.com> Chalksters and Chalkettes; I thought I'd wade into the fray over a few recent topics/controversies, but only up to my knees........ - Neil Young: no matter if you like him or not, you've got to admire his tenacity and the way he sticks to his principles and long-time support for various issues. I thought that his songs on the Buffalo Springfield albums were interesting and different and I've liked him ever since. For those wishing some recent info on the old boy, this past Sunday's New York Times magazine did a feature story that was quite good. - Doors: hey Dunks, great perspective on the band and on Morrison. If I could add anything, it's that I think you folks need to take context into account when you judge the merits of the man and the band. Remember, they started to record circa 1966, and artists who were willing to/were able to expand the pop vocabulary were far and few between. Among the few to do so were Dylan, Morrison, and the Beatles (who were just starting to break away from more basic themes at that time). So the idea of a "Rock poet" was quite new, and when people are experimenting and trying to break down barriers there's going to be some hits and even some colossal blunders. Yeah, some of Morrison's poetry sounds dated and even trivial but we can't deny they were really out there for the era they were written in. Listen to a bunch of hit songs on the radio from that time and you'll hear a whole lot of "Baby, I need your loving" kind of thing. Not too many others dealing with Oedipus on their first album....... - Jason Brown misread something (I believe) and became incensed at Tom Kingston over a statement about Paul Simon: Tom said > It is also my feeling that Paul did more for the elimination of apartheid > than his hypocritcal naysayers ever did. Smashing the barriers of > ignorance with sweet music! The dream of the sixties counterculture! He > did it! And to boot, contrary to the allegations of the reality > alteration in my contender's comments, that album did not rely on the > controversy for it's GREATNESS. Jason angrily replied >>Oh so it wasnt Economic Sanctions, an impeding widespread civil war, de >>Clerk's forethought that endded apartheid? Give me a f*****g break! I never thought I'd be jumping to Mr. Kingston's defense, but if you notice, he never said that Paul Simon was the sole reason for the death of apertheid. He just said that Simon did more to help the South Africans than those people who were yelling about him going there and "using" South African musicians, and that is essentially true. There were a load of people yelling at him but only a few did anything more than raise their voices at Paul Simon. Yeah, there were a few people who actually turned down a chance to play at Sun City, but in reality few artists were asked to play there. There was also a song called "(I Ain't Gonna Play) Sun City" by Steven Van Zandt of Springsteen's band fame (I may have the exact title wrong) that was one of those collaborative efforts with about 25 guest artists on it. Also, if you think about it, it really is a low-risk activity to sing on a song that exclaims that you are not going to travel to a place and play when you probably were not going to be asked to play there in the first place. If you accept that logic, then I think you must believe that for Paul Simon to go there and basically spit in the face of the evil government in order to use local musicians and publicize their plight takes more courage than most were willing to exhibit. I've been to South Africa a couple of times in the last 2 years, and obviously there are still huge social problems including racism, lack of parity in education and housing as well as a massive AIDS problem. However, this is a country that has a great chance to succeed because for the most part, the people now have a chance to work and grow together. For instance, it is one of the most beautiful places I've ever been, and I predict that within 10 years it will be one of the premier tourist destinations on earth. My company is working with the government to vastly improve the telecommunications infrastructure, which is designed such that every portion of the country will end up with modern communications. None of this would have been possible 10 years ago. - Gary asked if any of the XTC guys ever had day jobs. The answer is yes. I remember hearing a National Public Radio (in the USA) interview with Andy when Nonesuch was released. At that time, Colin and Dave were driving rental cars from place to place as needed by a rental car company just to earn a few quid. It seems that both of them were very badly off and had to resort to this wok to put food on the table. Andy didn't have to resort to these measures because even though they split songwriting royalties at that time, Andy wrote more and got a bigger share. Also, he had more "outside" playing and producing opportunities that brought in some extra cash. Which is one thing I will never understand: since Colin is one of the best, most sublime bass players on this planet, why he doesn't get/doesn't accept more guest shots on other people's albums is mystifying. If you check the Chalkhills archives, there are only a few guest spots listed. Oh well...... - Goldmine magazine, a specialty publication for collectors, ran a review of Wasp Star last issue. It was quite well-thought-out, and I thought that it could be summarized as follows: Wasp Star is a very, very good record, but it does not quite compare with AV1. The reviewer obviously loved AV1 and thought that it was one of the best albums ever; he said: "the album couldn't stop pouring out languid, lovely orchestral music of assured stateliness and brilliance, so following it up would be a daunting task for anyone." Regarding Wasp Star, he said: "XTC's latest album is "merely" a great set of rock songs the way a 14-karat diamond is "merely" a nice bit of jewelry; it's probably because the band delivered the Hope DIamond the last time that such a feat seems modest." Enough from me, I need to go dry off............ Cheers, Mike
------------------------------ Date: Wed, 2 Aug 2000 15:36:27 -0400 (EDT) From: Radios In Motion <radiosinmotion@iwon.com> Subject: KILL NAPSTER! Message-ID: <383868898.965244990792.JavaMail.root@web193-iw> I REFUSE to get into a debate about Napster, but I will say this. If you remember, back when Wasp Star was not out, I was partially against Napster. After reading lots of viewpoints, including a mighty fine article from that white trash chic from Hole (though I highly respected what she said on the article) I am a Napster convert. I am 100% behind Napster, or any service that supports the free trading of music without having to pay $100 for some rare bootleg on eBay. Remember, I only stated what I am for. There is NOTHING in my message that can be debated because I said nothing argumentative. Its just my opinion, just as someones oppinion may be that its wrong to use Napster. I have paid my dues, and I buy any albums availble, but to tell me its wrong to download some rare, OOP tracks that some asshole is selling on a CDR on ebay for $100, is bullshit. By the way, for those of you who cant use Napster, search Yahoo for "Napigator" and you will find a cool program that lets you still use Napster! Its easy to use and opens up TONS of servers to connect to!
------------------------------ Date: Wed, 2 Aug 2000 21:41:17 +0200 From: "Mark Strijbos" <mmello@knoware.nl> Subject: Massive Attack Message-ID: <20000802193527.5654FA6CEA@mail.knoware.nl> Dear Chalkers, > Oh my, the Chalkhills are alive with the sound of XTC fans! It's a bit > too much to handle, aint it? > > Quick mention, my massive XTC trade site, mmm... am i the only one to see a slight dichotomy in this message from the ever-present Wes Long? yours in xtc, Mark S. @ the Little Lighthouse www.come.to/xtc
------------------------------ Date: Wed, 02 Aug 2000 15:42:11 -0400 From: Richard Hamilton <shepham@frontiernet.net> Subject: wasp star/rats paws Message-ID: <B5ADF1D3.65EB%shepham@frontiernet.net> Hey, I know that the "name the new album after some cool lyrics from the last album" thing was (at first) coincidental, but then was done on purpose (for AV1), how come "wasp star" breaks with the accidental tradition? And...(I may be reaching here)...has anyone realized that "wasp star" backwards nearly spells "rats paws"...hmmmm.... Rich
------------------------------ Date: Wed, 2 Aug 2000 15:54:31 -0500 From: "William Sherlock" <bdsherlock@earthlink.net> Subject: Neil Young et al. Message-ID: <412000832205431580@earthlink.net> It's always seemed to me that what rock music lacks is a Tin Pan Alley, where songwriters could churn out lyrics and tunes for singers to sing. Many of the singers listed in the past few digests would certainly be able to make a handsome living on this street. Neil Young, Bob Dylan, Lou Reed, to name but a few, are songwriters who pen excellent lyrics but should never, ever, be let near a microphone. Aside to Phil Corless: The SH shirts are top drawer and one made my newly (today) six year old daughter a very happy girl today. Thanks to John Thomsen of Cedar Falls (and a Chalkhiller!) for the well wishes on RAGBRAI. 500 miles on a bike through Iowa and didn't meet one other XTC fan. I can only recall the hopes of hits that came with Wasp Star's release and remember thinking of Linus and the Great Pumpkin. On the plus side, it seems that since Idea Records was formed XTC is realizing a great deal more of a cut from record sales. Bill in Chicago "I should be in bed, I need my 11 hours. I'm a real sleep addict. I started off just napping. Then I got into the harder stuff...siestas. Before I knew what was happening I was a sleep junkie." Andy Partridge, Melody Maker, 8-18-79
------------------------------ Date: Wed, 2 Aug 2000 16:16:11 -0500 From: "Larry Stevens" <lstevens@fgi.net> Subject: Some art & music you may wish to ignore (No XTC content) Message-ID: <003801bffcc7$3265ff60$edc7d4cc@oldbessie> ChalkMeisters: Here's a bit of fun some of you might enjoy: http://www.fgi.net/~lstevens/midi/104.htm Tour through my gallery by clicking on the images. They are linked together in a daisy chain for easy navigation (and to hold all battleships in check, of course). Here's what you'll find: The pages all have background music files that I either created using fractal music software (I have strong suspicions that "River of Orchids" is a work of fractal music) or transcribed from adaptations of arrangements of old classical standards. They all play in continuous loops. Each page contains an image file that is either an original photo, a fractal detail, or something stolen from other webpages. Some long downloads, but you always have the option of clicking the X button on your browser. 8^) Larry "Hookah with my senses bubbled" Stevens
------------------------------ End of Chalkhills Digest #6-221 *******************************
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